Katja Wiederspahn: I came to think about what exactly popular means to me lately. And this was, for me, the most striking aspect of your film, that on the one hand it’s super complex and on the other hand, it’s very accessible…and not boring. How did you find the people you work with in the film, and how do you work with them in terms of their input to the film?
Keren Cytter: Actually the cast was a surprise for me too, because when I look at the movie, it's definitely not my scene. Generally, Georgica Pettus is the producer. I told her, find the cast and the locations. I do everything very small. And she is 25 years old. So she brought all of her friends except Laura, the blonde girl, and I’d worked with her several times. And Laura brought the mother Devery, who is my age. And the rest, it's them. I thought about it several times afterwards. Why did I make a youngsters movie? It's because of Georgica. It's all Georgica's friends. We did one reading and I explained it to them. I told them they need to adopt a certain rhythm for the speaking, so they need to not act so much, but when they talk, to keep a certain rhythm, not to talk too fast and not to be overdramatic, because it's all shot with a camera on a tripod, and I wanted to have a certain feel for the movie. It needs to be a bit slow, so more model-liked and posed. I'm not really like an actors' director. I don't have a deep affinity with actors – I don't care so much. I'm trying to care, but it's very new for me.
KW: Interesting, you say when you saw the finished film, it was a surprise for you, too. A surprise that it works so well?
KC: No, that it looks like an American indie. And I'm not American. And a lot of American indies I don't like, because I have no connection to American culture. But it looks American, and that’ because of Georgica.
What's the difference between performance and acting?
KW: Was the film scripted from A to Z? Did you change anything in the process of making the film or working with the actors?
KC: No, I didn't change anything. But I cut out things. My plan was to make a movie in which one character leads the story to another character and then they all meet. So the cleaner is coming for Angel, and then he's going up for Nicole. And there is a whole scene with the cleaner there. He was going for it but it just didn't look good, it didn't sound good. So I cut it out, and that's why there is a jump. I care a lot about the structure more than about acting. For me, it would be great if it one story really led to another and led to another, and then came together in the bathroom.
Barbara Wurm: When working with this young generation you surely gave certain hints and advice of what to do and what not to do, timing-wise – they speak in quite a distinct tempo, even if the way they talk is probably closer to their daily expression. Do you have an answer to why you chose this way to do it?
KC: Because I noticed the extended silences as I watched Hitchcock. Sometimes they're just quiet, and you just want to see what they will do next. It led me to think about performance. What's the difference between performance and acting?
BW: I am suspicious about certain facets of mainstream mumblecore or US indie style, this deliberate way of disallowing emotion into talking. And here I find similarities, but at the same time, it never puts me off. On the contrary, it took me in, as you describe it. I found it to even carry some effect of suspense, because there is a kind of detachment.
KC: I'm also quite emotionally distant. I'm trying to be more emotional with my life. So I think it comes together. Like Alex, that faked his confession in the beginning – I think he was the most emotional one. And we had to shoot it several times because we started laughing when he was doing it. I'm trying now to write something that will be more emotional.
KW: Before we started talking, I thought about the overall atmosphere and somehow the characters, they make me sad. Maybe the fact that they don't fight with each other. That the guy is not fighting with his mother, for example.
KC: Maybe because they don't try to communicate with each other sincerely.
KW: Well, I don't know. It's not my impression. Because the guy tells his mother, “Come on, what are you talking about? She's using drugs. I'm using drugs, too.” So they are in a way more outspoken than I ever was. I think it's the action part, that it is kind of slowed down and creates this atmosphere. I'm wondering, Barbara, because you labelled it that way, is that perhaps what a chamber drama is all about? Sitting in a room, talking and not turning your words into actions except for leaving the room?
BW: Yes, it definitely refers to the restricted location or places, like on a stage. Maybe it's something more like a post-dramatic drama.
I like the way how people talk to their phone and how they create compassionate realities and all kinds of confessions.
KW: Keren, how do you feel about this?
KC: I thought of in a more poetic way, maybe. I thought it's like chamber music.
KW: That’s a very good keyword. Music. This rhythm we were talking about, with the way the people are speaking, is it led by an imaginary music you have in your head?
KC: Not so imaginary, but I had a certain rhythm that should be slow, and I had a certain musician in mind. But the more that we kept shooting the movie and saw every night the footage, the music that I had in mind didn't fit. And then I asked Dan, to send me tracks, and that was much better. Eventually I placed his music in the movie and sent it to him. I think he was shocked by the result, and he asked to re-work it a bit. And he did, really nicely.
KW: The music permits more patience as you follow the film.
KC: I think so too. Though I cannot get that feeling from the movie because I know it too well. But I heard it's sad and made people feel bad, and I don't like that.
KW: It doesn't make me feel bad, it just creates a sad feeling. The people feel lonely.
KC: I'm lately very lonely too, so it makes sense. But proudly lonely. I decided to just go with it. Like. It’s almost like a new community.
BW: Do you associate with one of the characters more than with others?
KC: The characters are constructed from a lot of little moments. I'm watching lots of Instagram. I like the way how people talk to their phone and how they create compassionate realities and all kinds of confessions. So this I put in as well, and I like drones. The drone is like E.T. It’s like character from a different universe that comes for a visit, and Angel can fall for it because the ex-boyfriend is just awful or dishonest.
KW: What do you like about drones?
KC: They look like animals, like pets, and that you can operate them. When I was young, I always liked cars and things that you can operate with remotes. It’s like a pet that is looking at the house, like a creature. But the camera doesn't capture it so well, actually. It didn't work out so well.
KW: And what about the gun?
KC: The gun actually was the starting point for the whole movie. It was an advertisement on Instagram, a gun that is an iPhone that is in the gun. I thought was really cool. I Googled a bit and learned what she says in the movie: that there was a real gun but then they stopped manufacturing it because it really looked like an iPhone. But in China they produced it as a toy, and that's what they offered. The whole movie I somehow imagined someone shooting the drone with the fake iPhone, but it just didn’t work. Things get lost between the initial intention and what comes out in the end – there are so many compromises.
BW: You said that the relationships don't seem so sincere, and that they are not honest when they're speaking. I was not so sure about that. But if that’s the case, why is that?
KC: Well, I actually focused on the Internet people, on Laura, and Jordan, this couple. They’re the ones who were not sincere. With Nicole it’s something else – for the sake of structure I put the father thing and then the ashes, connecting it to the vibrator and sexuality. The only time that she had to be sincere is when she has to talk to people in the bathroom. And I thought, okay, what could a person say that has experienced something like this.
People are made of contradictions
BW: I love this first long scene when they both create some kind of romance that they work against.
KC: I watch a lot of Netflix. They have documentaries that build a new reality in each episode, and in the next episode there is a new character, that says, “no, everybody was lying”. Then, next episode, everybody was lying again. So it would be nice to make a dialogue that is about constant lies – the lies just build up, build up, build up.
It was funny when they kissed and she throws up. It's built out of a personal episode from high school. He was a good friend and we thought, we are such good friends, maybe we have sexual attraction, maybe we should kiss. So we kissed and he said, “no sparks.” And I agreed. I just drew from strong memories, and split them between the characters.
KW: What are your feelings towards the mother figure? I was a bit surprised that she's wiping up the vomit.
KC: People are made of contradictions. If you're still living with your mother, your mother is going to take care of you. Otherwise she will kick you out. Sometimes mothers are very protective, even if they may not always be great educators. I don't remember exactly why she cleaned the vomit. Maybe just to connect objects with people.
BW: The way you direct, it seems very like opposite. You seem very determined.
KC: Specific, maybe. Determination when it comes to my work. I have a strong vision of how things should be done. Before that, however, it goes really different ways. But then I’m faced with a structure, and I'm afraid. And look how many things didn't go well! So I feel I should protect what I can.
BW: Our impression when we first saw the film was that this is so full of spontaneity and surprising changes. And on the other hand, you have the script which you follow very neatly. Where does the spontaneity come from? Editing?
KC: I don't think I'm very spontaneous, and I think editing is just part of making the movie. I'm afraid to make a boring movie. If I follow my own system too much it can become boring, because I sometimes have very rigid structures. So editing is more like survival. To really cut out things that don't work and let the viewer get it without them. The script is important for me. I think everything through, but then when it comes to every detail, there are always things that I didn't think about or blanked out while looking at them.
KW: No, I guess it's more the feeling of surprise. The mother in the kitchen is a very different persona from the one wiping up the vomit. As you say, we are full of contradictions. But it's not so common to spell them out.
KC: Well, I did want them to be surprising. I realized that when I watch movies I actually don't like when I know what will happen. Every person is surprising if you know them deep enough. In the script I force the characters to do things and it will make sense to the viewer. People are always adjusting to everything.
